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Gestalt's replication of "regenerative acceleration".....strange lenz effects...


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#1 Gestalt

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:01 AM

Hey guys. I have been really interested in the Thane Heins supposed "delayed lenz" acceleration under load/short conditions effect.

This seemed like a promising avenue for circumnavigating lenz's law.

I have run numerous experiments and have had multiple builds.

The following is my latest one. 

 

 

Garrett had some interesting thoughts on the subject here:

http://www.energetic...html#post228130

 

However having run the experiment and compared power numbers in different configurations, I found something else strange going on. And needless to say I think it disproves Thane Heins's claims.

 

The real question is...why does an open bifilar coil above a given threshold frequency dramatically increase power draw? And then why does shorting it bring it back to a normal range?

 

I am really interested in anyone's theories,

 

Also if you have any other interesting tests you can think of with my setup let me know. I'll be happy to do it and post a video. I spent a lot of money and time constructing that. 

 

My completed build:

Attached File  My Setup.JPG   153.83KB   0 downloads


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#2 Robert

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 05:05 PM

Awesome, or in the current slang: "Epic" :D

 

I don't feel qualified to explain the results, and instead I can only think of questions rather than answers. Such as: Where does the energy go? Does it heat up the core or radiate away as hertzian or longitudinal waves? Is the coil effectively a capacitor, inductor or resistor, and how does that change between its open and shorted configurations?

 

Also, I gather from the video that the rotational speed was simply the equilibrium speed where input power equalled the power being dissipated. But maybe the speed needs to be fixed at a "sweet spot" to observe a phase difference of current and voltage.


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#3 madhatter1036

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 01:26 AM

couple thoughts, saturation of  the magnetic field in both the windings  and the core, it looks  to be a spaced core which causes 'swinging' and the  bifilar windings would be a load due to the magnetic field it generates. I'dsuggest looking thru some  transformer theory books. Alfred Still has a good one with vector and versor diagrams, leakage inductance and hysterisis also come  to mind based on the freq relationship. complex is an understatement.


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#4 Gestalt

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:23 AM

My theory as to what is occurring is as follows. The high voltage  (~1.2kV) on the open bifilar config causes an electro-static current to flow between the windings causing a substantial open circuit back-EMF. Then when shorting the coil the high voltage goes to zero and the artificially induced electrostatic back-emf goes away. This causes the acceleration and drop in Pin. As load is added regular back-EMF from actual current in the windings occurs demonstrated by the increasing Pin. 
 
This is validated by the voltage/electro-static potential on the open bifilar being high enough to cause substantial amounts of ozone to be produced through an air ionization process.
 
Of the many coils I have tested most of them when I short them do not cause the motor to drop in RPM or decrease Pin. That is "technically" full load current flowing through the windings yet causing zero back-EMF. However once you attach a resistive load and voltage appears across the load then normal generator back-EMF comes into effect. This is practically demonstrated on the 2nd coil, the 21 AWG monofilar.
 
I find this phenomena strange....in that I thought it was current and the resulting magnetic field that causes back-EMF. However that appears not to be the case and you need voltage as well. Why!?!?

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#5 Gestalt

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:29 AM

So besides the mystery of a full-load current on a shorted gen coil causing no BEMF (as shown on the 2nd coil in my above video), there is something else I was wondering about.

 

A while back Garrett and myself had a nice chat with Jim Murray on the phone.He told us of the following scenario.

 

If you have a small transformer with voltage on the primary but no load across the secondary, small metal tacks will stick to the sides of the transformer. Now as soon as you attach a load to the secondary, the tacks fall off.

I find this rather mysterious as to why there should be a difference.

 

Garrett I remember you had an explanation for why you thought this happened on EF however seems you deleted it. Do you remember your theory? Anyone else have an idea of what's going on? 


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#6 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:31 PM

Wow, didn't see this thread until today. Gestalt, I'll give your video a watch when I get home from work.

 

As for your question about Murray's comment, the B-field vector from the primary winding is in opposition to the flux of the secondary winding, basic Lenz and Faraday effects. So when you add up the various forces, to get the net force, you are left with a very weak or non-existent external field when the transformer is loaded. Bear in mind that there shouldn't be any external leakage in theory, but in practice its the norm. If shorted, the counter field of the secondary lowers the primary impedance, which permits more current to enter into the primary winding. If no current exists on the secondary, then there is no secondary B-field, just a voltage across the secondary related to the derivative of the primary windings B-field and the number of secondary turns. If currents are in the same direction, in both primary and secondary, then the coil with the greater ampere-turns product (B-field) will push power into the other winding via Faraday action.

 

Normally, only the rate of change (derivative) of a magnetic field can perform work in an electrical system. Static fields can cause no induction,by definition, and thus cannot cause energy to move from one winding to the next.

 

If you have two or more sources of magnetic fields the interactions of each one on the other can be complex, mainly due to the medium in which the field acts and the amount of coupling present. Iron, or any other material medium, has  a finite capacity for the magnetic field that it can sustain. This phenomena is observed in the B-H plot, the applied field H to the observed induction B. When you create a discontinuous medium, say an air gap, you can cause new phenomena to arise...  Non-linearities are the norm when it comes to ferromagnetic materials and motion through discontinuous mediums.


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#7 johnpolakowski

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:01 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with no load on the secondary in effect what you have is an electromagnet. The current flowing through the primary creates a BEMF that is stored as magnetic flux in the core of the transformer. If you have a load on the secondary this flux is "consumed' by the load on the secondary. If there's no load the core will continue to remain magnetized in accord with the changing current flowing through the primary. The tacks have no inherent magnetic polarity so they are attracted to the core regardless of the changing magnetic polarity- they will be attracted to any magnetic polarity. There should be a point in the cycle where the current flowing through the primary is 0, so there will be no magnetization of the core and no attraction of the tacks, but it only happens for a very short amount of time so the tacks remain attracted. Hysteresis also comes into play.

 

I've seen this in AC relays where the relay coil is powered by AC. Sometimes the relay buzzes because there is a point where it has no magnetism so the contact is released, but then current flows in the opposite direction through the relay coil and the contact is attracted to the core again. And this happens 60 times a second and sometimes creates a loud annoying buzzing. There's supposed to be something they integrate into the relay that creates an out of phase current to make sure there's always magnetism in the core but I can't remember the name off the top of my head.


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#8 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 04:22 AM

Gestalt,

 

Excellent video! I have a few concerns and critiques though.

 

When observing the phase of V and I of the coil for the experiment, the ideology is flawed. You actually measured the phase difference of the current through and the voltage across the rheostat not the coil current vs the B-field of the magnets. Also, you didn't plot a sweep of the rheostat showing the change in power transfer to load resistance [1]. This would have shown you the best load impedance for use with the generator coil. Plotting is a powerful tool, and can help you see beyond simple numerics, as you are able to see trends with plots.

 

Measurements for delayed Lenz law type phenomena are a lot different than most may think. You need to directly observe what each of various magnetic fields are doing, in relation to one another. A more accurate test to perform would use an RC integrator across an air core coil [2], to get the B-field of the magnets, and compare that signal with the current of the shorted iron cored coil. Also, if you have more than two channels on the scope, I would wind a second winding on the iron cored coil and use a second RC integrator to measure the B-field of the shorted winding. Note that each coil (air core and iron cored) must both be aligned with either a north or south pole and preferable, be located a fair distance away from each other to avoid mutual induction between the two coils. This would help determine the direction and intensity of the various vector forces.

 

Finally, an alternative way to examine the experiment is with the SI [ampere per meter] point of view. That is, that "permeability", as we normally see it, doesn't exist. Instead, bound "amperian currents" in ferrous materials (due to alignment of electron spins) produce an axillary H-field called [LaTeX Error: One or more directories do not exist] (magnetization), that when multiplied by free-space permeability [LaTeX Error: One or more directories do not exist], causes the measured induction [LaTeX Error: One or more directories do not exist] (flux density in [V*S] or [Wb/m^2]). [LaTeX Error: One or more directories do not exist], this is the Sommerfeld convention. The more modern view helps explain super conductivity and other magnetic phenomena by removing the black box that permeability creates. So when examining the motor you can then relate the static magnetic field of the magnets with an equivalent DC current of one turn. As well as treat the iron core as a fluctuating current that is related to both the field of the magnets and the current of the coil. Sounds confusing at first, but M of the iron is what is interacting with both the coil and the magnets to cause the delayed Lenz effect. In essence you have a static field [LaTeX Error: One or more directories do not exist] that is in motion due to the wheel rotation. A fluctuating [LaTeX Error: One or more directories do not exist] due to the alternating polarity of the magnets (and the slight variations of field intensity as the wheel moves) and from the induced coil current [LaTeX Error: One or more directories do not exist]. Finally, each unique source of current (bound or free charges) has an induction [LaTeX Error: One or more directories do not exist] that has a direction and intensity to causes the mechanical forces of the circuit.

 

Foot Notes:

[1] You can mark the rheostat for say 100ohm increments, and then quickly turn the dial to each mark and make a measurement at each one, then plot the collected data points.

[2] An air core is linear and be used as a B-field sensor--iron cores complicate directly measuring the b-field of the magnets.


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#9 Gestalt

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:45 AM

Also, you didn't plot a sweep of the rheostat showing the change in power transfer to load resistance [1]. This would have shown you the best load impedance for use with the generator coil. Plotting is a powerful tool, and can help you see beyond simple numerics, as you are able to see trends with plots.

 

I have done a plot although I didn't show it in the video, and the relationship/trend is linear. For every one watt output, input increases by 1 watt. Conventional generator action. My rheostat didn't go high enough to impedance match for max power transfer in this setup, however I have done that in my smaller experiments in a previous setup.

 

Thanks for your suggestions. In an ideal world (and I was considering this) getting a 3-axis magnetometer to visually see what was happening with the magnetic fields. I don't really see any point anymore in that the setup doesn't produce a positive gain in any case. Based on the decidedly negative results I think its safe to assume there is no delayed lenz.

 

The point overall being that the "acceleration effect" is not a delayed lenz effect, rather It is the removal of artificial induced excess back-emf, which makes all the difference. 


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#10 CliftonKr

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#13 VicenteSr

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 01:12 PM

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#19 VicenteSr

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онлайн заявка на кредитную карту альфа банк для адыгеи
банк сетелем великий новгород кредит наличными
реальная помощь в получении кредита в орле без предоплаты чёрный список ки испорчена
кредит наличными для ип с плохой кредитной историей
где может взять кредит беларус в москве
как взять кредит в сбербанке города томска
взять кредит с плохой кредитной историей через посредников 2013г
помощь перекредитовании в сбербанке в москве
справка для получения кредита в втб 24 заполнение в электронном виде
в каком банке можно оформить автокредит в 20 лет
помогаю получить кредит безработному и с просрочками
подать заявку на кредит в русфинанс банк онлайн заявка
до скольки лет пенсионерам дают кредитную карту в сбербанке
в новосибирске оформить кредитную карту в приватбанке
какие банки дают кредит без справок о доходах
микрозаймы с плохой кредитной историей в москве срочно
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взять в кредит в муниципальном банке
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какие банки в самаре дают деньги с плохой кредитной историей до 1 мил руб й на погашение других кредитов
как получить кредитный лемит мтс
разовый кредит вбд каком банке можно получить
сельхозбанки ульяновска кредит наличными

как получить кредит с плохой кредитной историей в чебоксарах
в каком банке можно взять кредит с плохой историей
собрался взять 650 тыс в кредит
податьонлайн заявку на кредит в банк уралсиб
кредиты в екатеринбурге с 20 лет
кредиты наличными с 20 лет тольятти

как получить кредит с плохой кредитной историей в чебоксарах
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#20 ChristyOi

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 01:27 PM

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