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Steinmetz and Longitudinal Waves


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#41 geoalg

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 02:03 AM

This just keeps getting better! Good find on that definition for negative resistance according to Hund.


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#42 MycoLogist

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 04:38 AM

Thank you! The preceding page (27) was most enlightening on negative resistance and Hund openly states that a negative resistance can act as a source of energy! This blows my mind right now. As I would have thought that "nonsense" such as this couldn't and wouldn’t be found in a text book. This is one of the many reasons I like Hund.
 

 

You might find this interesting then: The Correas have described a patent where they isolate a vacuum tube Voltage-Current regime which exhibits negative resistance characteristics, and termed autogenous pulsed abnormal glow discharge (PAGD) regime. This precedes their work in Aetherometry, but is described in excellent detail in their patents and other publications from the period (early to mid 1990s)

 

References:

http://www.aetherome...free/LS1-07.pdf

http://aetherometry....irect/ISNE3.pdf

http://aetherometry....atent_links.php

 

They claim to provide evidence in those patents and papers for excess electrical energy output above the electrical energy input to operate the discharge tubes. And go on to claim that the energy is ultimately derived electrodynamically from the metal which makes up the cathode - achieving best results with the low work function metal, Aluminium.


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#43 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:03 PM

MycoLogist,

 

Thanks for the links, I will give them a good thorough reading when I get some free time.

 

The dynatron of Albert W. Hull is said to do what the Correas' tube appears to do. Hull's device is a filament heated three electrode vacuum tube with two anodes, having the center one perforated. Hull later created the pilotron, which is a dynatron having a control grid placed before the perforated anode.

 

suqx.gif

 

After a superficial glance of the .pfds you linked, I noticed that the Correas' use a similar configuration (three electrode)--though I didn't ascertain whether or not they use a heater. Also, I am confused as to why plasma, outside of electron space charge and such, would have any part in their device. Are they gas filled tubes? Finally, why is there bombardment and physical damage to the electrodes, this would seem like a problem for long term stability if continuous physical changes occur inside the tubes during operation. Admittedly, I could answer these by reading, but it would be nice to hear what you have to say, as you may have insights from greater exposure to their work.


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#44 MycoLogist

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 02:12 AM

Garrett,

 

The immediately apparent differences seem to be that the Correas' PAGD is characterized precisely by plasma pulsation, cold-cathode operation, and what they have termed as autoelectronic emissions (autogenous PAGD). The latter property being the most novel characteristic of the device.

 

In the aPAGD regime, the pulsations occur at a controlled frequency without the need for an external pulse-forming circuit, and present a slope inverse to the Fowler-Nordheim slope, since the segmentation of the glow discharge is effectuated by auto-electronic eruptions from the cathode - the regime sharing characteristics of both arc and glow discharges. Like vacuum-arc discharges, the emission involves anomalous cathode reaction forces conforming to Aspden's Law of Electrodynamics, first enunciated by Dr. Harold Aspden in 1969. The Correas' describe how this can be used to drive the "XS NRG" system, such that power output exceeds the input. The aPAGD can also be employed as an inverter to drive a variety of motors. Previous inverter results had failed to match the overunity performance of the converter, however most recently they have been able to employ a permanent magnet-coupled, flywheel-loaded horsepower spinner (drag cup) motor which, when all the circuit components are tuned, displays overunity performance comparable to that observed with the converter system - (their 2006/2007 patents describe this art). My understanding is that due to the pulse frequencies being controlled, and controllable, between ~ 10-10,000 pps, the cathode is maintained 'cold' i.e. it is not a thermionic device. And it is the high current pulses that result which make it well suited for motor inverter function.

 

The tubes themselves are evacuated tubes, filled with low vapour pressures of Argon gas, and generally large (surface area). You are right in saying that, given the cathode eruptions and sputtering processes inherent to the system, there are short and medium-term physical changes occuring inside the tube which potentially present stability issues for the device. The patents describe ways to overcome this shortcoming, which include magnetically directing the metal sputtering onto the opposite electrode plate (preventing it ending up on the glass, which would truly be a problem). The circuit can then also be designed in a way that allows for external switching between the electrodes, such that cathode becomes anode and vice versa after operation has exchanged sufficient metal between the electrodes. In theory, allowing for extended/multiple cycling (switching) of the device, until it truly 'runs dry'.

 

Hope that was insightful enough...? :)

 

Cheers


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#45 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:17 PM

Thanks MycoLogist. I found your reply to be insightful indeed, haha.

I'm becoming more interested in the Correas' work, as I think negative resistance could be at play. The choice of using cold plasma, formed by low pressure argon, makes their tube design rather unique. Funny enough, the Correas' tubes reminded me of some simple experiments I made awhile back when examining what would appear to be ball plasma:

6c05.jpg
hq4e.jpgpbhp.jpgm46u.jpggycm.jpgkt8p.jpg

The purple spheroids move at random and seem to have no effect on shorting out the two terminal circuit, as the normal orange glow is independent and unaffected by the ball formation and placement. I attempted to perturb the plasma with a powerful neodymium magnet, but had no observable effects on the ball plasma movement or formation. Interestingly, if the bulb heated up enough, the balls would stop forming, so low temperature is important when getting them to appear. That said, the balls must have a rather high surface temperature, as they cause the NE2's electrodes to evaporate and sputter on to the glass envelope. I believe the formation is some type of meta-stable electrostatic attraction of ionized gas. Wikipedia and other references seem to be of no help in identifying these formations. Seems like it could have some correlation with the Correas' experiment, but maybe not.


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#46 madhatter1036

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:26 AM

my god you guys are fast, do any of you have lives!? :D

 

I got the msg from Garrett with Hunds paper and have been waiting till i had some quiet time to read thru it, a quick glance was interesting and I know I've seen something similar in one of the many old books. I like the  LaTex idea on the equations, given the sheer volume of them, it's going to take some effort and also given the quality of the print some decifering and more then one set of eyes on the project. I'll toss in my hat and help, should we split it up by pages and then confer? mathematics knowledge is a must to not miss subtle charactures and I wonder also about the changes to terms and nomenclature over the  last century as well. going thru Stienmetz, Heaviside, Gibbs, Thompson etc I found that I needed to in a way re-learn math due to the time delta. and esp so since the Solvay conference  in 1927!

 

I've got some catching up to do, challenge accepted!


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#47 Raui

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:42 AM

Awesome madhatter! Life, who needs a life? All it seems to be is you get in debt and then you die :D

 

Another pair of hands will make this lighter work but like you said it's hard work regardless. Luckily all the symbols are defined at the start of the paper but there are other things that aren't as obvious. Geoalg for the most part has been the one organising this so you are probably best to get in contact with him. Couldn't agree more about 're-learning' the math. I've taken it from the other side of things. Since I didn't learn math at a university formal level until well after getting involved in old books I recognise how a lot of new notation it different, let alone the symbols used to represent different quantities. These days I sometimes get confused by the two but at the end of the day it's likely going to make one better at math in the same way that I heard logical thinking is higher in a second language, if you have one, than it is your first, quite strange really.


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#48 MycoLogist

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:28 AM

Hey Garrett, it was my pleasure. I really enjoy attempting to translate and communicate their ideas in ways that can be appreciated by others - it refines my understanding of their work too. Thanks for the opportunity to do so.

 

Your experimental set up in the pictures does remind of a short clip I saw on their website a while back demonstrating the PAGD driving a Stirling Motor. The purple glow can be seen to jump around erractically in the tube. Reflecting on that combination though, the Stirling Motor operates on a difference of temperature to drive a motor piston - I will see if I can find out more detailed information on the principles of that particular set up to understand how evolved heat is involved.

 

http://www.aetherome...ling_double.mov

 

 

PS. For what it's worth, I once came across the work of Dr. Kiril Chukanov - Quantum Free Energy from Ball Lightning. I can't say much else about it, but that there was a heap of material available on his website describing ball lightning, which he says he has dedicated half his life to the study of - maybe there is an insight or two lying in wait for you there...


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#49 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:52 AM

Hey guys,
 
I found another paper by Hund if anyone is interested (it's in German though):

 

August Hund - Application of Complex Angular Velocities in Electrotechnics, 1920
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Also, for anyone working on extracting the equations from Hund's other paper into LaTeX, I found out that Hathi-Trust has two copies of the journal for reference when you are unsure what something is, since there are so many little blobs of ink and other artifacts that obscure the notation:

 

Elektrotechnik und Maschinenbau Vol. 38, 1920, pg: 289-293, 393-397, 430-434, 527-530. Copy 1, Copy 2.


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#50 Gestalt

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 05:30 AM

Ok as per Garrett's request I finished translating the first part of Hund's paper on Negative Resistance. This is a rough draft, and I haven't gone through and corrected all the grammar stuff.

I am really not cut out for translation. This was a real challenge. I contacted a translation service for a quote. I think it may be better to pay and get an expert to do it. 

I found one with a professor in electrical engineering at a German university.

 

That part about "living" mass is very interesting!

 

here goes nothing.....

--------------------------------

From Heft 34 Wien, 22 August 1920    38.Jahrgang
 
[page 393]
 
Bi-Symbolic Equations and their Electrical use
From Dr.Ing. August Hund, Berkley, California - Second Part
 
Application on Systems, with Negative Resistance shown
 
A) Definition and properties of Negative Resistance
 
An electrical conductor will have negative resistance, when a sudden decrease in current causes an increase in voltage between the ends of a conductor. That is:
 
[insert equation]
 
is a negative number, during a normal resistance this operation will give a positive value. A negative resistance has therefore a falling Volt-Ampere-Characteristic. Overall it has properties like a normal resistance, in that it will seek continuous current-prevention and cause Joule heat losses.
 
The straight part AB the Abb.4a and the matching of a negative resistance the impure nature while the curved part BC the Abb.4a a negative resistance and impure nature gives. In both cases is the negative resistance restricted, that the Volt-Ampere-Characteristic only from a specific voltage change decreases. The straight part AD has on a decrease for the current "back-upwards" flows.
 
[insert diagram]
 
The current flows also against the excitatory voltage and the back-EMF gives then the current a normal direction. For such cases it would be good it appears that normal back-EMF as a forward-EMF and to see the normal terminal voltage as backwards terminal voltage.
 
When a circuit only has negative resistance, one could simply calculate with negative current pulses, for the decrease, the positive voltage pulses the system imprinted were. When instead both positive and negative resistances parts a circuit builds, you can the current pulse in the individual parts itself part wise or completely compensate. In case sudden voltage changes are available. Such phenomena are found in electric arcs when a non-constant current flow is provided. For example if a constant voltage source is directly connected to and applied to an electric arc, can the least suddenly power reduction through the impure sheet resistance, which is negative, strongly accelerated until the end of the current value has become so small, that the electric arc turns off. In the same way can a positive current value in the supply current of the electric arc so through the impure negative resistance of the electric arc grow, that the feed line can burn up.
 
Such positive and negative accelerations of current pulses can with great advantage be utilized, as is shown in other parts of a separate publication. It could be of interest that the combination of positive and negative resistance ideal values strain and the current strengthening to followed and the production of undamped and growing oscillations is usable. 
 
It should be noted that a negative resistance is not a "dead" mass like a normal positive resistance (cooper wire, etc.). Negative resistance has reference to "living" mass, which  salvages energy and at any moment compensates for the loss of the actual circuit or actually [becomes?] a current source such that more energy can be injected than was sent through the negative resistance. 
 
The negative resistance of an electric arc as was shown above, limited and growing oscillations, if at all started, would after and a few reversals decay to a zero value. The same applies therefore to the Dynatron-Oscillator of the scientific laboratory of General Electric Company in Schnenectady NY that the straight part of the Volt-Amp-Characteristic of the Dynatron only for a limited Voltage change applies. Limited negative resistance has therefore an advantage over normal positive resistance, that its growing oscillations automatically turn off like a fuse acts upon a system.

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#51 geoalg

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:55 PM

Gestalt, Do you have a rough idea of how much it would cost to get the translation done professionally?


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#52 Gestalt

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:16 PM

omg, first quote $3000...no thanks.


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#53 Robert

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:52 PM

I have had good results with Google translate and some thought about alternatives. While translating the titles in the table on page 528, one term, Leiterlänge, came out as "ladder length," which had me wondering, until I realized it had to be "length of conductor."


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#54 madhatter1036

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:13 PM

google translate is fairly good, also noticed that context is everything- obvious I know. not very good at a sentance or two but entire paragraphs will keep changing the result, refining it as more is translated. what will really make it hard is if german splits std language vs techinical jargon like english. not sure that they do, not faimiler enough with german.

 

I do know that if the article is in Djvue formatt then you can pull the text directly from it, I'll check the software I have and see if I can get it to 'scan' the paper.


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#55 Gestalt

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:00 AM

My German is at an elementary school level. The problem is even a completely native German speaker wouldn't be able to translate that paper unless they also took advanced electrical engineering.

Finding someone that can actually understand what an entire sentence means and then translate it is going to be challenging. 

As far as I know most PhD programs in Germany are taught in English. It in many ways has become the language of science.

 

I will keep working at it, slowly. My German is good enough to provide a rudimentary translation. 

Perhaps I could get someone to proof read my translation for cheaper...

 

Madhatter, if your program can catch the dots above vowels and correct for weird spacing, it would really help me. 


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#56 madhatter1036

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:16 AM

OK, I took the PDF and converted it to djvu this created a text layer. I then pulled the text layer and ran it thru the translator, I was also able to OCR the pdf and pull the text from the orginal PDF and run that text thru the translator. it's messy and needs to be gone thru but the entire thing is there.

 

best bet would be to work with the original german against the pdf and then translate it. I'll get the text docs together, where to upload?


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#57 madhatter1036

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:48 AM

txt files in german of both the DjVu and PDF. at least it's a start for translating vs typing it all in. needs to be cleaned up.

 

google translation is 60~70% good, interesting read. negative resistance mass for perpetual electrical generation based on oscilation.

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