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Steinmetz and Longitudinal Waves


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#1 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 08:38 PM

I've been trying to get Charles Mannebak's 1923 AIEE article "Radiation from Transmission Lines" but to no avail. If anyone has access to the AIEE archives, I would very much appreciate if they could liberate it.
 
Reading through the abstract however, was most interesting to say the least! Manneback brings up Heaviside, Poincare and Steinmetz, two of whom Eric Dollard makes regular references to. What I found to be of the greatest interest in the abstract was the assertion of Steinmetz developing a transmission line theory for longitudinal waves! Makes sense as to why Eric really focuses on getting people to read Steinmetz.
 
Abstract:
 
The aim of this investigation was to contribute something to our knowledge of traveling electromagnetic waves. Among the transient phenomena that occur along transmission lines, these are still little known, especially as far as their "attenuation'' and "distortion,'' or change in shape near the "wave front'' are concerned. It is first seen that the "classical theory'' of the propagation of electrical disturbances along lines, as it has been chiefly developed by Heaviside and Poincare, does not give a correct representation of the facts near the wave front, because it assumes an instantaneous penetration, of the current in the wires. It is shown that this theory is an "unidimensional'' one, as it considers only one space variable, the coordinate along the line, and, from an electromagnetic point of view, amounts to identifying the traveling waves with plane wave phenomena. Steinmetz's theory of the radiation from traveling waves (Trans. AIEE Feb., 1919) is then examined, and, as Carson pointed out (Jour. AIEE, Oct. 1921), found based on a misconception of the propagation of the electromagnetic field near the wires of a line. It is remarked that this theory amounts to propagating longitudinal electric waves, a conception in conflict with the basis of Maxwell's theory. This latter proves very easily that, along a perfect line, i.e., without ohmic or leakage losses, plane electromagnetic traveling waves are propagated without distortion and without attenuation; hence that there is no radiation.
 
Notes:
 
I found a paper that cites Mannebeck--seemed rather interesting.
[1]  Miri & McLain - Radiation from Unbalanced Transmission Lines, 2012


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#2 geoalg

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:04 PM

You've peaked my interest; however, I don't have access to the IEEE historical (AIEE) archives.  Typically anyone registered with a University should have access to the IEEE archives via their school's online library system interface. I'm pretty sure that Library systems are unified across platforms since they are usually federally supported. If you can't access it that way, maybe a student attending University elsewhere can.

 

Also, the date on the paper is interesting because Steinmetz smoked his last cigar in October of that year.


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#3 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 10:14 PM

Geo thanks for the reply.

 

Where I'm attending University they don't give access to the IEEE Explore database, which is a bummer for sure. They do provide access to JSTOR which has been a pretty good resource for some electrical papers. Though mainly the school gives access to chemistry and biomedical journals.

 

Fascinating note about Steinmetz! I didn't know that’s when he passed away.


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#4 geoalg

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:02 PM

Check to see if the Library interface provides a list of publications to access, and then search for IEEEexplore. Then I think you have to login with your student ID or something.

 

Google Books:

http://books.google.... #search_anchor

 

Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co...ok-20/ref=nosim

 

Slightly closer here...

Dealoz:

http://www.dealoz.co...&shipping_type=

 

If all else fails: Here's the MIT reprint for $20 at Abebooks:

http://www.abebooks....id=a_1596565688

 

But, we already know that the pdf is in the IEEE archives, so who's going to help us get that paper? Someone needs to throw some water on Router, and short circuit his beauty sleep.


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#5 Raui

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:48 AM

But, we already know that the pdf is in the IEEE archives, so who's going to help us get that paper? Someone needs to throw some water on Router, and short circuit his beauty sleep.

 

Beauty sleep short circuited..here you go gentlemen. It does certainly sound like a very interesting paper. Beats reading the news with my morning tea ;)

Attached Files


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#6 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:46 AM

Ermahgerd! Thanks Router!

 

Hopefully we can get some new insights from this paper regarding longitudinal waves--however obscure they might be.

 

Now time for some difficult reading over dinner...

 

On some other news, I picked up a 3kV pulse generator (uses charge lines--lengths of coax cable--to set the pulse duration) the other day and hope to do some new tests regarding resonant frequency of metallic-dielectric structures.

 

This website made me interested in the technique:

 

Measuring Structural Resonances in the Fequency Domain

Measuring Structural Resonances in the Time Domain - Part 1

Inductive and Capacitive Coupling - Induced Current Characteristics

 

Btw, the time-domain and frequency-domain methods listed above can each be applied to measure the resonant frequency of the tesla transformer coils. The cool thing with the time-domain method is that you can see dampening and thus calculate for effective losses. The frequency-domain method is probably the most useful however, as you can just wave a current probe around and see at what frequency something naturally vibrates at electrically, and see the bandwidth of its structure, i.e. all of its resonant modes. You need to have a tracking generator equipped spectrum analyzer though for the frequency-domain test along with a directional coupler... So that method is out of reach for most people.


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#7 geoalg

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:47 AM

There we go.

 

Hmm... Even Vannevar gets in on the action.

 

 

The following papers would also be helpful:

1. C. P. Steinmetz -- Proc. A.I.E.E., Feb. 1919, p. 249

2. Carson, Jour. A.I.E.E, Oct, 1921, p. 789


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#8 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:17 AM

Geo, I've been downloading all the AIEE Journals, just need to finish looking through them and I'll upload those articles. I would like to get some of Poincare's work as well.
 
Steinmetz
 
CP Steinmetz - General Equations of the Electric Circuit Pt3, 1919
This is the paper I believe Mannebeck was referencing—It appears to be the third part of a series:
CP Steinmetz - General Equations of the Electric Circuit Pt1, 1908
CP Steinmetz - Outline of Theory of Impulse Currents, 1916 (this is part 2) 
oxat.png
And some other related and very interesting papers by Steinmetz:
CP Steinmetz - Electric Transients, 1911
CP Steinmetz - Nature of Transients in Electrical Engineering, 1912
CP Steinmetz - Electrical Disturbances & the Nature of Electrical Energy, 1912
 
Here's a fascinating letter to the Editor of the Electrical World regarding Steinmetz's paper and Carson's attack of it, both of which Mannebeck cite for his paper.
vndj.png
Click here for original .pdf
 
Carson
 
I can't seem to find his first paper but here's a later paper by Carson, it cites his older paper along with Mannebecks:
JR Carson - Present Status of Wire Transmission Therory and Some of its Outstanding Problems, 1928

August Hund
 
If anyone can get a hold of this esoteric paper by Hund, you may find the holy grail of free energy, haha. Looks like Hund is developing a Dollard like symbolic "versor" system to obviate calculus routines, as well as an advancement of Steinmetz's 3 part series "General Equations of the Electric Circuit". Paper looks to be in German though.
qg1v.png

Click here for original .pdf


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#9 Raui

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:45 AM

Thanks for posting them up Garrett. That's the paper I believe it could be talking about too but according to the IEEE it's published in January 1919. 1919 is a year that pops up a lot in all this it seems. I couldn't find the Carson paper unfortunately.


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#10 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:55 AM

Nah thats the paper, Feb. is the month too. Below is Mannebeck's citation: 
ql2e.png


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#11 Raui

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:11 AM

Garrett,

I've managed to locate August Hund's paper, you can find anything if you dig in the right spots! :D As you expected it's in German but never fear, I think I have ways around such a language barrier.

 

Bi-symbolic Equations and their use in Electrical Engineering [GERMAN]

 

According to World-Cat there is a book with the same name by Hund. By the way for reference the name of the papers in German is "Bi-symbolische Gleichungen und deren Verwendung in der Elektrotechnik"


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#12 Gestalt

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:00 AM

My first language is german. My technical vocabulary isn't great but I can figure most of it out.


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#13 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:20 AM

Nice job Router! I don't know how the devil you managed to find that paper, but to say the least I'm impressed!

 

At first I thought you found a different paper, but after looking through the archive you uploaded, the contents appear to follow with the descriptions in the abstract that I posted earlier! Though I'm confused as to why the abstract changed the name of Hund’s article? Makes sense as to why I couldn't get anywhere when looking for his paper.

gf9q.pngClick here for original .pdf

This abstract corroborates with the dates of the one I gave prior and the article's name you managed to find. Now I want to find Kennelly's paper that Hund cites and do some thorough reading. I think there are some gems waiting to be found in all these papers.

 

At any rate the contents seem to be pure gold regarding Eric's work, as Hund goes over the archetype electrical waves and even covers negative resistance. I'm curious if Eric ever came across Hund's paper...


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#14 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:39 AM

On the topic of Hund, I just picked up a couple of his books, Phenomena in high-frequency systems and Frequency modulation, for $3.50 a piece with free shipping--at that price I said why not. Both look to be pretty interesting reads. Also, while book snatching, I picked up J.A. Ferreira's 1989 Electromagnetic Modelling of Power Electronic Converters for $10 with 3.99 shipping on Amazon as well. I read this a while back on Google Books (with limited viewing of course) and became hooked but could never find a copy for a good price till today. It covers Poyntine vectors and other interesting and esoteric electrical theory with a grace and style that makes learning about hard concepts seem easy.


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#15 Raui

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:47 AM

My first language is german. My technical vocabulary isn't great but I can figure most of it out.

 

Awesome. I had just finished OCRing them and was about to fix up some errors and try a google translate but if you speak german you'd be able to do a better job than google translate. I bet any words that you don't know we could probably work out especially with the aid of a translation software.

 

Nice job Router! I don't know how the devil you managed to find that paper, but to say the least I'm impressed!

 

At first I thought you found a different paper, but after looking through the archive you uploaded the contents appears to follow with the descriptions in the abstract that I posted earlier! Though I'm confused as to why the abstract changed the name of Hund’s article?

gf9q.pngClick here for original .pdf

This abstract corroborates with the dates of the one I gave prior and the article's name you managed to find. Now I want to find Kennelly's paper that Hund cites and do some thorough reading. I think there are some gems waiting to be found in all these papers.

 

At any rate the contents seem to be pure gold regarding Eric's work, as Hund goes over the archetype electrical waves and even covers negative resistance. I'm curious if Eric ever came across Hund's paper...

Just a bit of search engine craftiness and a dash of luck :) I actually found the book first, well at least the name of the book, which I thought might be relevant because of the reference to symbolic math which is what Steinmetz' math is otherwise I would have been less sure than I was. Found it on a library page which allows you to look at any of the issues sorted by year. This is the site incase you're wondering: http://ezb.uni-regensburg.de/?2699370

 

I think you'll find that the Kennelly paper Hund is referring to is 'Impedance, Angular Velocities and Frequencies of Oscillating Currents' which is in Proceedings of the Institute of Radio Engineers dated 1916 from pags 47-78 which seems to match the reference in Hund's paper pretty well.

 

Attached File  Impedance, Angular Velocities & Frequencies of Oscillating Currents.pdf   2.61MB   9 downloads


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#16 Gestalt

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:29 PM

Awesome. I had just finished OCRing them and was about to fix up some errors and try a google translate but if you speak german you'd be able to do a better job than google translate. I bet any words that you don't know we could probably work out especially with the aid of a translation software.

 

Actually probably easier to do the reverse. Run it through google translate, and then if there are things don't quite make sense, or are confusing, I can go back and read the original and compare. Google translate does a far faster job than I ever could and it's translations are generally spot on. German technical language translates over to enligsh relatively well, it's things like Goethes poetry (the stuff tesla was fond of) that does not. 


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#17 geoalg

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:18 PM

The Kennelly paper "Impedance, Angular Velocities and Frequencies of Oscillating Currents," clarifies MacFarlane's paper on the hyperbolic analysis application, and gives examples of using the full complex plane (all four quadrants, all poles [LaTeX Error: One or more directories do not exist]) as an input to the exponential.

Consider Part III "Forced Oscillations in Transient States" of "Nonlinear Oscillations in Physical Systems." That and the short section on coupled oscillators from the above paper should get you excited about putting together some tube multi-vibrators.


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#18 jimm

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:44 PM

Here is an interesting demo on the subject.

http://www.youtube.c...syRUegk&index=1

Unfortunately, he doesn't prove superluminal velocity but other important points are made.

1) in pulse mode the radio is to receive inside of a metal box.

2) no HV

3)low power

4) the effect is not observed with sinusoidal drive.

 

Perhaps this is an example/mode of "action at a distance"?

For me, this has been the most compelling experiment that I have ever seen showing that here is indeed something "different" happening under certain circumstances.

( better than Dollard ever did!!)


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#19 G4ΓΓ3ττ

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:56 PM

Hi guys,

 

I got Hund’s paper (compliments of Router's hard work) complied into a single .pdf. I took the liberty to remove other articles that were on the same page as Hund’s, since I found them distracting and did some other house cleaning. (However, I will upload both for people to download.) Also, I OCRed them with BlueBeam PDF Revu (although I didn't have the German language addon) and attempted to use Google Translate... At first attempt it seems hopeless to use Google to translate the paper, but I blame my OCR program as well... It’s practically unintelligible. Maybe someone else will have better luck? I’m most interested in reading Hund’s spiel on negative resistance. And now I'm off to finding some dynatron tubes...

 

August Hund - Bi-Symbolic Equations & Their Use in Electrical Engineering, 1920

August Hund - Bi-Symbolic Equations & Their Use in Electrical Engineering, 1920 (unedited)


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#20 Gestalt

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 12:57 AM

Well I can read it, but I'd have to sit with a dictionary to learn EE in german. I could translate it, it would take me a several days though.

On a scale of 1-10, how important is this to you?


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